I just felt like sharing a conversation I had with Greg tonight, because it helped me understand a bunch of stuff. And I’m in a really good mood. So here you go.
[21:22:22] Steak220: and he asked the most OBVIOUS question i should have been able to answer off the beat
[21:23:36] Steak220: “god hates us because we sin?” “no, he loves us despite that.” “he loves us even though we sin, no matter what we do?” “yeah” “so we can do whatever we want?” “err….”
[21:23:36] drakos7: and you choked, eh.
[21:23:55] Steak220: it’s a question i always stumble on, and I can enver give a good answer to
[21:24:48] Steak220: i’ve been told like twice before how to answer it, but i always forget
[21:28:21] drakos7: You need to remember the essence of the gospel and always go back to it. Prevent them from wandering off to their own topics.
His love is based upon what Christ did on the cross, and not what we do. BUT, what we do shows how much we love God. Anyone actively commiting sin would be greatly deceived if they thought they were redeemed. AND, God’s love says nothing about God’s chosen for salvation. Difference between mercy and grace. God not punishing is mercy (not gettng what we deserve), God giving eternal life is grace (gettin what we don’t deserve).
[21:30:33] Steak220: i don’t quite understand
[21:30:41] Steak220: like..
[21:30:43] drakos7: what part?
[21:30:56] Steak220: God’s love is based on how much we show our love for him?
[21:31:12] Steak220: i don’t think that’s true, but that’s what it seems like from what you said
[21:32:43] Steak220: i mean, you can fall into sin, and still truly believe in God, can’t you?
[21:32:48] drakos7: My very first sentence of that paragraph: His love is based upon what Christ did on the cross, and not what we do.
[21:33:03] Steak220: right, but also look at
[21:33:09] Steak220: “Anyone actively commiting sin would be greatly deceived if they thought they were redeemed.”
[21:37:27] Steak220: this is what i don’t really get
[21:37:50] drakos7: right. If you are actively pursuing some(or many) sin with no repentance, should you really hope that you are redeemed? If God’s love abides in us, then we know Who we belong to. There is no scriptural evidence that unrepentant sinners will receive mercy or grace. The calloused heart is easily decieved.
Now, what about “assurance of salvation” and “perseverence of the saints” you may ask. Those who persevere are obviously saints. Those who eeke by are still saved “but as through the fire”. Still saved but not pretty.
[21:38:30] drakos7: And like I said in SS, we cannot ultimately arbitrate who gets in.
[21:38:35] Steak220: so your faith isn’t permanent?
[21:39:04] Steak220: i was always taught that if you believe once, that’s all it takes
[21:39:53] Steak220: like, taking shelter in Jesus’ death sort of kept you there from that point on
[21:46:03] drakos7: yes. but what if the object of your faith is not real? what if you believe with your whole heart that Jesus saved you but you also believe that Jesus=ReverendMoon? In that case you would be sincerely believing something that is not worth believing in. Many “accept Christ” just because of the social benefits, fear being punished eternally, did not have a father figure, … They are often trusting in something in their own imagination (or someone elses) and not in the Jesus of scripture (and reality).
So that is why we talk about objective faith, that we have a specific object in mind and we need to know who that is.
Yes, I do believe that some truly trust in Christ and then are ensnared by Satan and his minions. They are still saved, no doubt, but are not glorifying God.
So when I say “actively commiting sin greatly decieved” it can only be directed to one’s own heart and not applied to others. I need to search my own soul and decide whether running amok is a sign of the Spirit in me. Does that help at all?
[21:47:15] Steak220: i think so
[21:47:44] Steak220: i understand the whole first part
[21:48:09] Steak220: but what do you mean objective faith? faith that is in the eye of the beholder?
[21:49:36] Steak220: and when you say actively commiting sin greatly decieved
[21:49:40] Steak220: you mean, decieving yourself?
[21:55:24] drakos7: objective: that the object is true. you believed that before you sat down that the chair would support your weight. Now if I had snuck in and sabotaged it, your faith would still be the same, but the object would be faulty (and you would plummet!) so if the object of your faith is an idol, no matter how sincerely you believe, and even if the name is Jesus, then, well… You can come up with numerous analogies along these lines because in truth, we live most of our lives in faith. Faith that our water is not poisoned, faith that our car will not blow up, faith that the bus’s steering will not fail, …
yes, deceiving yourself (and quite possibly/often deceiving others as well). If I claimed Christ but tried starting a cult of highschoolers who would take over Ithaca at gunpoint, my Christ is not the true Lord of scripture.